I would have liked to have seen some analysis in the professor's address of Church member support for the current war in Iraq.

I don't want to provoke a fight (pun intended), but my impression is that members of the Church have embraced the war in Iraq from the beginning and have remained supportive even as the reasons and arguments for going to war have proven unfounded, irrational and out right fabricated.

Quick to defend country?

I personally find it interesting that Utah has the lowest rate of enlistment in the military in the nation yet we also have one of the highest political support ratings for the war in Iraq.

Are we Gung Ho for the war as long as it is fought with other states children?

Or maybe it is the old guys(those who do not have to fight) who are Gung Ho for the war and our children are voting with their feet against the war?

The answer to this is if the draft is returned and our own children have to serve in large numbers will our political support for the war evaporate?

War is opposite of the Prince of Peace. So is torturing another human being, yet many LDS republicans justified and even encourage torture.
Sad that so many of them just don't get it.

I agree. We talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Military service is very low here compared to other places I've lived, apparently the statistics bear this out. I think that those who support the war NOW are simply unable to admit their mistake in judgement. I say this and I supported the war initially. As I learned of the fabricated evidence (re: for example the "Downing Street Memo", etc.) it became clear that the real reasons for going to war against Iraq had little to do with fighting terrorism. It is not easy to admit you were wrong, that you were duped, but I was. For a whole host of very good reasons we should leave Iraq (orderly yes...). Our country is broke and can not afford this war. The problems in front of us can not be "kicked down the road" any more. We need the government to actually do the right things now. Otherwise, well, I believe we could be facing catastrophic consequences.

Chris Cannon made a motion to have federal funds cut off from unpatriotic Berkeley, CA, which is in Alameda County, CA which has a far higher rate of military service than Utah. Utahns love to puff and bluster, but when it comes to laying it on the line, they're less likely to fight than the people of the communities Utah's politicians openly accuse of treason.

To:Oh how times have changed Many non LDS believe mormon beliefs are unfounded,irrational and and outright fabricated so it must stand to reason that church members support the war inspite of the above.
Personaly as a LDS I support the war for the oposite reasons you state.

The Church spouts a big spiel about being patriotic and supporting the defense of America, BUT, Utah has the lowest enlistment for the number of young eligible men in the nation...

Why? The answer is three-fold.

First, a ChurchMission comes first and foremost and then when the youngster comes home they're supposed to get married quickly and have kids quickly, which leaves the military option way on the back burner.

Second, the Church and its parents have always had a profound phobia of their sons going into the military and being tainted and taken down by the 'ways of the world.' So unless the young men are forced into compulsory (drafted) military service, the boys don't enlist.

Third, the Mormon boys themselves are extremely ambivalent to military service because the kind of patriotism they're taught is best illustrated in the fact that Utah's July 24th Pioneer Day is celebrated with twice the fanfare and enthusiasm that America's July 4th Independence Day is celebrated. Their sense of patriotism is like luke-warm water in a leaky paper cup.

There are of course exceptions, but the general rules I've described stand all the same.

Utah, sans LDSchurch, talk but don't walk the talk.

The LDS church needs to quit patting itself on the back for something that it is unqualified to being dong so about.

Being a life-long resident of Utah, I have in those years had 4 sons serve in the military (3 Navy, 1 Marines) honorably. They've all come back to Utah and where the issue of military service is concerned it has been very disconcerting for them.

Utah has the lowest enlistment rate of eligible aged men in the nation. This is appalling to my sons profound sense of patriotism.

Return missionaries log even lower enlistment figures, since the Mormon church insists these boys get married quickly and immediately start families, cutting the military option out of the picture completely.

Utah's college ROTC programs are the most dismal and poorly participated in by its you college age men in the nation, worse than Berkley University itself!

Utah does not give a tuition break to military veterans, forcing one of my sons to have to stay in Washington state to afford post-military university schooling where he gets 1/2 off tuition,

The newspapers highlight missionary stuff to a higher level than soldiers stuff.

LDS church talks big, but doesn't walk their talk.

As active Latter-Day Saint, I was against the war in Iraq before it ever began. I believe it was a mistake to go there. We have spent, what? a trillion dollars and counting. Plenty have died. Other LDS disagree. I don't argue and respect other opinions on the subject. In his speech, "War and Peace", President Hinckley said, "However, we all must also be mindful of another overriding responsibility, which I may add, governs my personal feelings and dictates my personal loyalties in the present situation."

I would like to remind others that Pres. Hinckley used the words "my personal feelings" and "personal loyalties". As such I am not aware that the Church has any official stance on the war. Members are free to choose what they think of the war and should be respected in their opinions. I don't necessarily believe the USA should pull out of Iraq quickly until it is stabilized. We created the problem, we should fix it now. I just think we should not have gone there in the first place, and that we should learn from our mistake.

Here we go again.
There still is no convincing evidence that the US and UK citizenry were duped into the Iraq War. The "Bush Lied, People Died" slogan is a lie in itself. The Left seized on the absence of WMDs as a cross upon which to crucify the hated Bush. Unfortunately, the Bush administration has failed time and time again to defend itself and ignored rather than refuted its critics. All the foreign intelligence services who studied the issue agreed that Iraq had WMDs. So did Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and a multitude of other senators. (BTW, Iraq never fully accounted for the destruction of its WMDs.)

As a former military officer who is an LDS convert, I associated with many LDS servicemen and am awed by the quality of military personnel that come from the homes of Utah and other heavily LDS areas. I have no evidence, but my theory about low Utah military levels is that many Utah LDS families do not want things like military service to delay or sideline their sons serving LDS missions.
President Hinckley was very supportive of recent US participation in conflicts. In recent years, one General Authority encouraged the citizen soldier concept, while cautioning members to avoid developing a permanent warrior ethos. The Book of Mormon gives us such an example in Captain Moroni, who did not delight in bloodshed, but was valiant in fighting enemies. He also, it should be noted, was hurt by the treasonous behavior of the government's critics at home. Noto bene.

To Kenny,

"Personaly as a LDS I support the war for the oposite reasons you state."

What are you trying to say good buddy? I've read and reread your posting and I can't make sense out of your words.

My original statement this morning was "members of the Church have embraced the war in Iraq from the beginning and have remained supportive even as the reasons and arguments for going to war have proven unfounded, irrational and out right fabricated."

I'm having one of those senior moments. Take another shot at telling me why you supported the war. Maybe this time I'll understand.

As a deployed vetran, I can tell you that you can support the military without supporting the war - and vise versa. I think many Utahns have found you can support the military without having to enlist.

In response to "I agree", you simply do not know the history of economics. This country goes to war = the economy improves. Look at the economy a few years following WWI, WWII, even 'Nam & Desert Storm.

Any true soldier will tell you the question "why are we there" is irrelevent. It is in the past, you can't prevent it. It's politics, and you can only waste time pointing fingers. In the military, you do your job, learn from your mistakes and move on.

I didn't join the military because most of the enlisted soldiers are not a group I'd want to be around. They use an extreme amount of profanity, are relatively unsophisticated, and have questionable sexual values.

That being said, most of them are tougher than me. Probably all of them are tougher than me. I'm an attorney. There is no dirt underneath my fingernails. If my car is broken, I pay someone to fix it.

Does that make me unpatriotic? I don't think so. I'd rather have the hick from some small town in Texas or the Hispanic from Arizona fight for this country than me because I'd FAIL. I couldn't handle the heat in Iraq, not having the comforts of home and so on.

I'll vote every time to have the military defend this country and I'll vote every time to increase their pay.

But I won't join. Nope. Not in a million years. I also won't become a plumber and clean the crap out of your toilet, though I agree it's a necessary job.

It's just not for me. But trust me, I'll pay you for your service.

I agree with "really?" posted 12:12 PM, people in Utah are very supportive of the soldiers serving, regardless of their personal feelings about the wars. I don't like the Iraq war either and I'm not sure if we should be there. But, we ARE there. We are involved. We are a major part of things. It's a situation now where we can't just pull out. If we do, the problems it will cause would be catastrophic.

We are also in Afghanistan. I believe we should be there, doing what we are there to do.

What each person believes is their choice. How each person acts is their choice. I am proud of my husband who is currently deployed and I am grateful for the service he and the men and women who serve with him are doing.

None of us know everything going on in these wars. The media reports are biased and incomplete. It is impossible to judge anything accurately from their reports. All we can do is pray for those who are making the decisions in these wars. Pray that their decisions will be made the best way possible, with minimum loss of life.

"They use an extreme amount of profanity, are relatively unsophisticated, and have questionable sexual values"

Thanks, buddy. Im so glad you value me like that. You might want to re-think your statement. But dont worry, you keep your LDS head in the sand and i will guard your 6. People like you who look down on us Military people make me sick.

I spent six years in the Air Force as a pilot during the Vietnam war. I had joined the LDS church about one year before entering the service. In my opinion, most of the talk comparing military service with patriotism is bogus. There are plenty of people in the service who are there because it works for them; it's a job.

I have told many young people that each day that they spend on a mission (LDS or otherwise) taking peace across the earth is more important than all six years that I spent in the Air Force. If we had more missionaries spreading true christian beliefs and being of service to their fellow human beings, we would, in my opinion, have a better world.

Don't mix up Church members with Church teachings. I challenge anyone to find for me ONE piece of evidence that can explain for me the CHURCH'S OFFICIAL standing. Because the Church has no official standing. They have not issued one, other than to say that it is up to the individual members to prayerfully consider their own conscience.

As for missionary service, the church has encouraged this long before the Iraq war, and they will continue to do so long after it. As Sun DZ said, "The more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in war". Who sweats more in the pursuit of peace than the missionaries? The whole world consists of one family, all childeren of a loving Father who would love nothing more than to see them get along? That'd never work, would it?
No you're right, Mormon missionaries contribute nothing to the defense of the world against evil.

I am a Mormon from Utah and take offince at the lumping together of opinions. My dad served in WWII and lost an arm, My oldest brother served in Viet Nam and lost his sanity. My husband served in the military but did not go to war and still lost his sanity, my son-in-law just came home from Iraq what more do you want. I see alot of kids these days that don't even stand and salute the flag as it passes. But one thing might explain the slight opisition or avoidence of serving in the military. When the Mormon's Needed the US, the US sent the calvery to take them down. In Nauvoo the government turned it's back while there was a extermination order given to the saints and while they were on their way out the government asked them to send their good men to fight for their country which they did, leaving women and children to continue on to Utah territory by themselves. I know this is in the past but judging from the treatment of Mitt Romney it seems to be going strong

Chris D., I think you speak for a lot of people. At least you are tough enough to admit it.

Chris D.,

Your posting at 12:40 is one of the most honest assessments of a personal position on any given subject I've read on this board. I applaud you for your candor and frankness.

Now lets have a discussion about if this is how we want our state and church portrayed.

Do we want to be known as people like Chris who sit on the sidelines cheering and tossing our dollars at the young men (including my son) who are risking their lives for our well being? Or do we want to be known as a Church whose members gets involved and in the process makes the world, in this case the military, a better, stronger, safer, more righteous place for all because we were there.

What do you think?

If a war is necessary, all able bodied men should be required to fight to "save" their country.Initiate the DRAFT!(I do not see the presidents son in law doing his part either).

>reasons and arguments for going to war have proven unfounded, irrational and out right fabricated.

That's a leftist meme that has been proven to be unfounded, irrational, and outright fabricated.

RJ,

As noble as your perspective is about missionaries and their message changing the world, there is one big difference between missionary service and military service.

When you go on a mission there is a tacit agreement between the Church and the parents of the Missionary that everything will be done to keep the young person out of harms way and that the missionary will return safely after his or her two years are up. Leaders of the church thankfully take that commitment very seriously.

I received no such promise last year from the US Government when my son enlisted in the Navy. My son joined knowing at any time he may be called upon to sacrifice his life defending the Country. You can make a case for the sacrifice soldiers and sailors make is more significant than that of a missionary.

Do we need both? YES But a soldier's task is more significant and extracts a higher price than that of a missionary.

Just my 2 cents.

YOUR loyalty CSTN!!!!!!

What the facts seem to bear out is that while Utah supports the war with their votes and their patriotic perspectives, fewer residents than any other state sign up to serve.

The facts give one pause. Wouldn't you agree?

"I didn't join the military because most of the enlisted soldiers are not a group I'd want to be around. They use an extreme amount of profanity, are relatively unsophisticated, and have questionable sexual values."

What a pompous, arrogant comment. Having served 20 years as an "unsophisticated," profanity-spewing, sexual deviant in the military, I am most offended by your comment. Most of the other enlisted soldiers I came in contact with were good, hard-working folks. Sure, some came from unsophisticated backgrounds, but that is common in all aspects of American society. Thomas S. Monson served his country as an enlisted sailor in the Naval Reserve. I hardly characterize him as you so piously stated.

I, my brothers, and my father all served in the military as enlisted soldiers/sailors/airmen. We'll take your backhanded compliment as it was intended - as a complete put-down.

We should fight for the right reasons, but this is an immoral war and is by and for big oil (yes, and Bush and Chenney are part of it). Our kids are fighting so they can put money in their pockets! I believe in supporting our troops (I have several nephews there), but we need to eliminate the root reason for being there by switching to alternative energy - biking, electricity - whatever works!

"This great American nation the Almighty raised up by the power of his omnipotent hand, that it might be possible in the latter days for the kingdom of God to be established in the earth.

"If the Lord had not prepared the way by laying the foundations of this glorious nation, it would have been impossible (under the stringent laws and bigotry of the monarchical governments of the world) to have laid the foundations for the coming of his great kingdom. The Lord has done this.

"His hand has been over this nation, and it is his purpose and design to enlarge it, make it glorious above all others, and to give it dominion and power over the earth, to the end that those who are kept in bondage and serfdom may be brought to the enjoyment of the fullest freedom and liberty of conscience possible for intelligent men to exercise in the earth."

Mark E. Petersen, The Great Prologue, p.ii

What is your point. Is God not God of the whole earth (world). Then why would he have national interests. And if he is going to play politics with the world then what does that mean or say about God, and/or you and me brother.

RESPONSE TO KF/OTHERS:

You shouldn't be offended. I said "most of the enlisted soldiers are those who I wouldn't want to be around". Those reading the blog on the Desertnews I doubt are among them. Obviously there are some in the military who are able to rise above the moral filth that does pervade the armed forces.

My brother is a former Marine: He swears like a sailor, smokes like a chimney, and has lived with multiple women. I've met friends of his from the military who live similar lives. That I choose not to socialize with this group means nothing. We have little in common, though I value their service immensely.

Citing President Monson is not relevant. He is one example from a time long ago.

The individual who can do something else but chooses to serve for patriotic reasons is a rare breed. That's why many military men / women choose the service because the college road is not to their liking.

I don't think it's a revelation that many in the military have questionable lifestyles. I also don't think it's a revelation that there is also a minority group who are also high quality citizens.

I'm Mormon and a Soldier of 10 years, so far. I just got off a deployment 2 months ago.

Austin-
TK-1649

>He swears like a sailor, smokes like a chimney, and has lived with multiple women.

Sounds like most of my students at the secular university at which I teach...Except that the students are complete cowards to boot.

The few really good ones I get are usually--you guessed it--current or former military.

I have spent many years associating with civilian college students and members of the military (both enlisted and otherwise), and the caliber of individual is far higher on average among the members of the military. There are a few bad ones in the military, just as there are a few good ones on secular college campuses.

Austin: Thank you for your service! You are always in our prayers.

Mormons/Wars? I have 10 uncles. All enlisted in the armed services as good Mormon men, to fight for this country during world war II. I have 53 male first cousins. Most enlisted in the armed services. My five brothers and I enlisted in the armed services. Four of my uncles killed in WWII. 15 of my cousins were killed or injured in Korea and Vietnam. Two of my brothers are career, One Navy, One Air Force. Three of my uncles were Career military. Many of us didn't go on missions while young, but are willing to go now. Many of us served our country after missions, and yes, some of my relatives didn't serve in the military or go on missions, but if you want a good fight, just say something deragatory about this country, OR, this church, and you'll have all you can handle. READ, Saints and Soldiers, or check in the foyer of your ward for the pictures of those serving this country. Then, talk out the other side of your mouth. God Bless America, Her Military People,and the freedom we have because of their strength, honor and integrity. Oh yes, thank them for fighting for YOU!

Chris D,

"I don't think it's a revelation that many in the military have questionable lifestyles. I also don't think it's a revelation that there is also a minority group who are also high quality citizens."

Are you for real, or the must judgmental, pompous person ever born?

Come spend some time with me, a former Soldier and Airman. I'll introduce you to my former co-workers who are some of the most professional, hard-working people I have ever met. They are the majority. Your anecdotal example is just that - an anecdote. Go to drill with the 1/145th Field Artillery, or go to Red Flag with the 388th Tactical Fighter Wing at Hill Air Force Base. They will work circles around you in harsh conditions and low pay all while showing proper military courtesy and doing the best job they can with the tools they are given. I even know lawyers in the military who drill as enlisted soldiers on the weekends who are also "high quality citizens."

Hope this doesn't get bumped as "off topic," but there're several loose ends left hanging by other posts:

1)Yes LDS should serve more, even if its in the guard and reserve. It comports with our religious doctrine, & also our history. (BTW, I served 22 years in the Marine Corps after mission, marriage, and college; retired 10 years ago.)

2) If this war were "just about oil," we would've grabbed it immediately and let rot the rest of the country. We didn't grab the oil; the Iraqis "own it"(even with recently high prices). Further, Saddam would've taken our $$$ too, so we didn't need the war if we wanted oil.

3) A draft would probably be less "just" than the present system. There isn't enough $$ or other resources for all to serve, even with civil/public service included. So only some will be "selected." However, I've no problem with a "Starship Troopers" arrangement (the book, not the stupid movie). Having served with sullen draftees, many hating the service, I prefer the volunteers -- who may also hate it, but in fewer numbers.

4) There's still no explanation why trucks to Syria before the war. (Where's the WMD, etc.?)

God, Family and country but when a small group believes in a different God and mormon Jesus it skews the perception of the meaning..... Pretty sameful on the mormon participation in serving in the military but then again...

I'm LDS and have opposed the Iraq War from the beginning. I consider myself a patriot in that I support the ideals on which our nation was founded. Unfortunately, our nation's ideals have suffered recently by disregarding the spirit and at times the letter of the law while pursuing the so-called War on Terror. I respect the bravery and sacrifice of many of our armed forces and their families but will not support ANY unnecessary military action including the debacle in Iraq. We have spent much of our nation's reputation, our fortune and our blood for reasons still unclear to me. At the same time we continue to lag behind other industrialized nations in education, infrastructure and standard of living. If you want me to join anything, let's defend our country against THESE threats

I'm LDS and I have never lived in Utah. There are other large concentrations of Mormons all over the country. Take Idaho for instance. I know personally of a medium sized town there that had its Armed forces units called up to go over to Iraq and everyone knew or were related to someone going over and this a predominately LDS community! Its really not fair to call us unpatriotic because we choose to live our religion first.
As for the war, well I personally think that there is tons of evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and then destroyed them or (scariest part of all) shipped them out of the country. However, I didn't think we should have gone in without a better plan of action on what to do when we won. So here we are many years later after the main battles have been fought still trying to get Iraq on its feet and rather tired of it. But it wasn't my call and in the end its over. Why are we still arguing over it? That part is over. We DO have a responsibiltiy to make sure history doesn't repeat itself there.

And while I'm venting...let me get even more off subject. I personally think the idea of a war on terror was stupid. It doesn't define anything and leaves a lot open to the current presidents line of thinking. Too much power alotted to the oval office already!
It would have been better to say we are targeting Al Queda and any country that harbors them better watch out!
And I think that it sure would have been nice if this war in Iraq had been about oil. Why aren't we taking a share in their profits to help fund the war? I bet they'd let us. Does that make us mercanaries? No, since we didn't really go there to get paid. But then we'd bailed out Europe -twice- in the last hundred years of some nasty messes they got themselves into AND forgave them their war debts. Pretty darn nice. But nobody remebers that.

Also not in the military. My brief experience with recruiters trying to get my husband to join up was to tell us how great the beer was in Germany. I am afraid that I agree with Chris D. They military has a nasty reputation, helped along by the media, of all the things he described. People I have known that currently serve, and have served in the military uphold this. That being said, I have two brothers that have served honorably in the military. And they are good LDS men. So both sides of the argument are valid. Also valid is the point that USA colleges/univesities can find just as degenerate behavior. Alot of Military (my brothers) went into it to get a hold of the GI bill and get some money for school. This is another one of those stories that refutes the idea that only people too dumb to go to school go inthe military. Better watch out for generalizations.