Reader comments: MormonTimes.com: Making church documents 'as good as old'
45 comments | Read story
En Hedu'Anna | 1:33 a.m. July 5, 2008
Fascinating work. Remarkable advanaces in technology that facilitate the conservation process.
tlfarns | 6:32 a.m. July 5, 2008
Maybe a little truth to the "doctrine" would be nice. How about calling the church what it is...a group of people that blindly follow the teachings of a polygymous founder and believe it is an eternal law of God
KingM | 8:05 a.m. July 5, 2008
"In the Latter-day Saint faith, doctrine and history are so intertwined as to be inseparable; one sustains and gives meaning to the other. Mormonism, perhaps, is unique in this respect."
Am I the only one who sees the irony in this statement? It's the studying of history that leads so many people out of the church.
Am I the only one who sees the irony in this statement? It's the studying of history that leads so many people out of the church.
Comments continue below
Ernest T. Bass | 10:09 a.m. July 5, 2008
We need to open ALL documents to the public/member's inspection....nothing like hiding away fact.
I agree... | 10:22 a.m. July 5, 2008
I agree...my study of the REAL history has been less than faith promoting. Questions asked about it get ignored or at best brushed aside. I don't know what to do.
Richard Nibbler | 10:46 a.m. July 5, 2008
Nothing like taking something old and "restoring" it again. OOps. Did I say restore.
Maybe sanitize is a better word.
Maybe sanitize is a better word.
Jack R. | 11:25 a.m. July 5, 2008
It would be best if the polygamy part of the church would perhaps turn into ashes. People are fed up with that part of the church, and no one care if it disappeared permanently.
kathyn | 11:38 a.m. July 5, 2008
I think it's wonderful that these treasures can be restored and preserved. And for those of you who study "real" history. Be sure you aren't being misled by old stories which were written by anti-LDS and are being resurrected as being "real" when they never were. If you expect everyone in the church to be perfect and without sin, then you better expect it of yourself, too. The original 12 apostles had many faults, but the Lord still loved them and let them grow in the gospel in spite of their mistakes. Yes, there are some things in past church history that would surprise us, but you can't bring your 21st century sensibilities to determine what was right and moral in the 19th century. It was always "line upon line and precept upn precept." The truths were given as they could be accepted and not before.
veedub | 11:45 a.m. July 5, 2008
Comments like people like KingM, Ernest T, "I agree" and Richard Nibbler, who complain and insinuate that the LDS church is trying to hide its history, show that many people who claim the LDS church's history shows it to be false, only read what they want in the history. This whole article is about the careful preservation and restoration of original historical documents. However these brilliant minds in their own prejudice choose to read it that the church is destroying history.
Spiritually Young and Faithless | 12:08 p.m. July 5, 2008
Wow! This is like a BYU football article where mostly Yewt fans post derogetory comments.
My study of the history of the church this past decade has shown me that we are taught important doctrinal teacings and histories at church and mainstream history on our own time. And they're not conflicting!
Nowhere have I learned better the history of the church than from it's own open documents, which BTW is where 99% of anti's get their stuff.
My eyes have been opened to the beauty of the growth of the church and the interesting means to a number of ends.
Too many people in the world look for the reasons behind things rather than the meaning behind them (ie. The Flood, Donkey's talking, The Word of Wisdom, Polygamy, Blacks and the Priesthood, Temple Ceremonies, etc) which can lead to doubt & cynisism.
I thank the church and it's candor and openess. If people search they will find. If faithless, what they find may give them the excuse they've wanted to leave.
To accuse the church, it's leaders, it's members, etc. of hiding history is false and you're lying to yourself if you've been duped into believing those reports.
My study of the history of the church this past decade has shown me that we are taught important doctrinal teacings and histories at church and mainstream history on our own time. And they're not conflicting!
Nowhere have I learned better the history of the church than from it's own open documents, which BTW is where 99% of anti's get their stuff.
My eyes have been opened to the beauty of the growth of the church and the interesting means to a number of ends.
Too many people in the world look for the reasons behind things rather than the meaning behind them (ie. The Flood, Donkey's talking, The Word of Wisdom, Polygamy, Blacks and the Priesthood, Temple Ceremonies, etc) which can lead to doubt & cynisism.
I thank the church and it's candor and openess. If people search they will find. If faithless, what they find may give them the excuse they've wanted to leave.
To accuse the church, it's leaders, it's members, etc. of hiding history is false and you're lying to yourself if you've been duped into believing those reports.
Yes, open all documents | 12:24 p.m. July 5, 2008
Yes, Mr. Bass, we need to open all documents. Let's start with yours. In fact, let's go to your house and open your tax records. . . Wait, according to qwestdex there is no one by the name of Ernest T. Bass that lives in the state of Utah.
Well, Mr. Bass, what are you hiding?
Well, Mr. Bass, what are you hiding?
Anonymous | 1:32 p.m. July 5, 2008
Making documents as good as old: isn't that what Mark Hoffman did?
Don't know what to say... | 3:43 p.m. July 5, 2008
My comments ("I agree") seem to have offended another poster. I have studied all sides of LDS history. It is very troubling.
kathyn | 3:44 p.m. July 5, 2008
anonymous....why don't you read the entire article. Perhaps you're just being clever, so I guess I should give you the benefit of a doubt. BTW, I've heard that anti-LDS still use some of Hoffman's forgeries against the church. He really was diabolical.
Re: Jack R. | 4:20 p.m. July 5, 2008
I believe many LDS prophets have dumped the polygamy chaos. It is no longer doctrine of the LDS church. We do not preach or practice and thank god for this. Although, I do feel just as you do about polygamy. I have me ONE wife and a very good one, and do not need another... NOT EVER!!!
Wondering... | 4:39 p.m. July 5, 2008
why is it that when folks say that they have studied Church history they find it troubling.......if you study history with any pre-concieved notions as to what you will find, then yes it will be troubling. Use context, or study it in context to US history, world history, and measure it against the mores and norms of the time. What will trouble you is how so many were able to inflict wrongs on the Church and do so with impunity. You will find everyday folks trying their best to live the revelations to the best of their ability, just like today. Some were able to do it, some weren't. They weren't perfect and neither are we.
Get over your unreasonable expectations.
Get over your unreasonable expectations.
Catie | 5:14 p.m. July 5, 2008
I find church history confusing????? I keep praying for a testimony. Don't have too much of one yet even though I do attend church regularly-- Maybe someday?
re: Catie | 5:33 p.m. July 5, 2008
I have found that my testimony is something that I try to work on all of the time. This world is a hectic place with so many voices competing for our attention. It's getting harder and harder to find solitude. I,too went through a period of time when I wasn't sure, but I've kept putting the Lord's words and commandments to the test and my testimony is becoming more and more sure. Paying a faithful tithing can be a real test, but I've been blessed so many times that it can't just be coincidence. You must read and reread the Book of Mormon and one day it will just hit you that you know it's true. Listen to the prophets (really listen) during General Conference. One of them will say something that will help you with your testimony. I promise that's the truth. kathyn
to Catie | 5:35 p.m. July 5, 2008
Also, be very careful of your sources and make sure you get the real story and not half-truths. Unless you know the gospel well, it's easy to be deceived.
kathyn
kathyn
Richard Nibbler | 5:40 p.m. July 5, 2008
re:Kathyn,
You make some very bold statements that cannot be backed up by History.
I suggest you read Church History written by those that you know and admired during the time period from the 1830's through the 1860's.
I sincerely believe you will change your tone a bit.
re:Katie
Study history, not the Ensign.
You make some very bold statements that cannot be backed up by History.
I suggest you read Church History written by those that you know and admired during the time period from the 1830's through the 1860's.
I sincerely believe you will change your tone a bit.
re:Katie
Study history, not the Ensign.
Mike Nelson | 7:48 p.m. July 5, 2008
It is neat that such old books can be refurbished so they can be handled again. Those that use negetive talk so far haven't said anything of substance. It is their personal adgenda which accomplishes nothing.
Convert of 10 yrs. | 8:46 p.m. July 5, 2008
It's funny every time someone mentions how much they dislike polygamy in the early days of church history. You always get the same group of old farts coming on and defend it and attacking others. Hey! This modern times for those who are lost in time. You can pull the wool over each others eyes, but you cannot on modern woman. Besides, I really doubt church history is all accurate.
to Richard | 9:30 p.m. July 5, 2008
I have read many different sources including anti-LDS books. I have read a lot of church history and no...not just the Ensign. I still know the church is true and it's not dependent upon mistakes made by early church members and leaders. Surprise...they were human. Our leaders today are human. You are human and have made mistakes. I sure have, but repentance is a wonderful thing. The early church leaders and members were having to learn so many new ideas and ways. They struggled with these things. Many left the church, but many also returned because they knew it was true. It was a challenging time for them. Don't condemn them for their human frailties. Be glad for the wonderful things they were able to accomplish in spite of their foibles and weaknesses. We may not be much, but the Lord will make something wonderful of us if we let Him. Thank goodness I won't be judged so much on the person I was years ago, but the person I've become. Kathyn
Cindy | 10:14 p.m. July 5, 2008
Re: Richard Nibbler, I see exactly where you are coming from. I think you and I must be floating in the same boat.
Arizona Member | 10:22 p.m. July 5, 2008
I've been surprised more than once with something I've read about in Church history, just as I've been surprised (that's putting it mildly) with things I've read in the Old or New Testaments. The one thing that's clear is that God calls very imperfect people to do His work. There are plenty of examples of those who fell short who were called at one point or another to preach or lead in some way. But history doesn't "trouble" you if you've also had the spiritual witness that removes doubt. And there's nothing blind about the obedience that often follows.
Paul | 10:41 p.m. July 5, 2008
Nothing against history. Lots of interesting stuff. But since I'm living in 2008 I'll stay with the Ensign. More pertinent and vital info than what was written in the world of 1838.
KB | 10:47 p.m. July 5, 2008
Interesting article. Glad they are able to preserve these antiques.
As far as history is concerned, it’s in the past. It is what it is. Church history itself doesn’t trouble me nearly as much as knowing how the church has traditionally handled all the irritating aspects.
As far as history is concerned, it’s in the past. It is what it is. Church history itself doesn’t trouble me nearly as much as knowing how the church has traditionally handled all the irritating aspects.
to Arizona member | 10:47 p.m. July 5, 2008
You are so right! kathyn
Wilford R Nielson | 1:52 a.m. July 6, 2008
I hear all about the things and mistakes of men in the 1800/s but what about today in the 2000/s. Men in high plsces in there religion have commited wrongs against there flocks and some of them have been turned over to the police in there districts for prosecacution< yes even some of the men were LDS and were ex comutated or at least emedeadley prosacuted. The people in 1830 plus were still Human and made many mistakes the same as you and I. Lets all try to be more humble. Wilford
I believe in me | 9:38 a.m. July 6, 2008
Just like fake antiques are sold to people, so are fake histories. Who knows what to believe? Even the bible has very little authenticity to it. I suppose we are doomed to believe the versions of many clever men. Oh well, life could be worse.
To Wilford R Nielson, listen to my words, and have a great day, buddy.
To Wilford R Nielson, listen to my words, and have a great day, buddy.
Jean | 1:45 p.m. July 6, 2008
Do we really know what the truth is? History has a way of being lost or misrepresented. Personal testimony has a way of being slanted or falsified to please the questioner. People die, so statements cannot be checked. On the other hand, a statement in print tends to become fact when in truth it may not be fact at all, but only a myth written down. What we intend to believe is what we want to believe. History is always being rewritten and we will never know the truth.
Denice | 4:46 p.m. July 6, 2008
Re: Jean
I certainly agree with you. Many people fail to realize this and live in blind faith.
I certainly agree with you. Many people fail to realize this and live in blind faith.
Anonymous | 7:11 p.m. July 6, 2008
If some of you believe that God calls "imperfect people" to do His work, why aren't you bothered by the possibility that these imperfect people were MOST imperfect in that they LIED about God talking to them at all?!!
It always amazes me that I hear Mormons condemn people for making one mistake, saying that if they were not honest or forthright in ONE thing, then they cannot be trusted in anything. (How does the saying go, he who is faithful in small things will be faithful in large things?) But then they accept Joseph Smith's BIG stories (about seeing God) even though there is AMPLE documentation that he concocted stories MANY times! He was convicted of glass-looking (treasure-hunting), lied to Emma (and everybody else) about polygamous relationships LONG before any revelations had been announced, and even told a WHOPPER about an ancient warrior named Zelph! Can you trust ANYTHING this guy said?
It always amazes me that I hear Mormons condemn people for making one mistake, saying that if they were not honest or forthright in ONE thing, then they cannot be trusted in anything. (How does the saying go, he who is faithful in small things will be faithful in large things?) But then they accept Joseph Smith's BIG stories (about seeing God) even though there is AMPLE documentation that he concocted stories MANY times! He was convicted of glass-looking (treasure-hunting), lied to Emma (and everybody else) about polygamous relationships LONG before any revelations had been announced, and even told a WHOPPER about an ancient warrior named Zelph! Can you trust ANYTHING this guy said?
John | 8:18 p.m. July 6, 2008
Jeepers! You know Joseph Smith said he was over come by darkness before he received his revelation. I just wonder if he was able to discern who was the devil?
Tina | 8:25 p.m. July 6, 2008
Re: Anonymous 7:!!
I have often wondered the same thing?
I have often wondered the same thing?
Clyde | 9:47 p.m. July 6, 2008
I cannot wait for the day when ALL frauds and liars will be revealed and reparations paid to their victims. The more historical documents are preserved, the more real evidence we have to bring to bear on traditions that have long held people in bondage. As the case is put together, perhaps a day will come when there will be enough evidence for a class-action suit against the LDS Church for taking people's money under the influence of the "Joseph Smith Story" that turns out to be a complete hoax and fraud! I would LOVE to see the Church have to pay back all that Tithing and all those offerings! Even if it is like $6 billion per year for the past 10 year, paying $60 Billion back to the members would certainly stimulate economies around the world because people would have their money to spend on real things rather than lies!
The Promise | 9:50 p.m. July 6, 2008
Trouble with your testimony? Join a very large crowd. If you are trying to encompass the 'revelations of LDS prophets' as part of your testimony...you have a very good reason to fail. Its impossible.
But, in Christ...all things are possible. Only, He needs to be the center of your testimony. 'He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No One, comes to the Father, expect through Him.' The only One, worth trusting.
But, in Christ...all things are possible. Only, He needs to be the center of your testimony. 'He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No One, comes to the Father, expect through Him.' The only One, worth trusting.
We All Need Money | 10:16 p.m. July 6, 2008
Hey Clyde, sounds like a good idea. I would be a rich man if I got back all my tithing. I could pay off my home too.
I have fallen away from the church because I cannot stand the pompous, arrogant members who get up behind the pulpit on fast Sunday, after all week long back biting others, and then proceed to give a cry baby testimony. I think these members are probably crying because they know they are phony fakers. But for them it's a fortunate moment of humility. Although, give them about 1/2 hour outside of the ward house they belong to, and they will all be out complaining and slandering someone who they do not approve of. Sometimes even the Bishop. It all made me too unhappy to hang around have to listen to the hypocrites.
I have fallen away from the church because I cannot stand the pompous, arrogant members who get up behind the pulpit on fast Sunday, after all week long back biting others, and then proceed to give a cry baby testimony. I think these members are probably crying because they know they are phony fakers. But for them it's a fortunate moment of humility. Although, give them about 1/2 hour outside of the ward house they belong to, and they will all be out complaining and slandering someone who they do not approve of. Sometimes even the Bishop. It all made me too unhappy to hang around have to listen to the hypocrites.
Jeff Davis | 2:35 p.m. July 7, 2008
All of you Mormon-haters need to go get a life, or a job, or something productive to do. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true and there is nothing you can do or say to change it. We Mormons have experienced far too many miracles to be swayed by your empty-headed innuendos and self-righteous judging.
PCD | 2:50 p.m. July 7, 2008
I rarely read comments, but because this story was so interesting I wanted to see what others had to say about it. I haven't been able to stop laughing at all the unrelated comments by what seems to be disaffected Mormons. I'm not from Utah, but I guess it is true what they say, that "you can leave the church but you can't leave it alone". Some of you need to get the chip off your shoulder and move on!
NS | 3:11 p.m. July 7, 2008
What a firestorm of comments. The LDS church has a unique spot because we are so young and records of the history of this church are so prevelant. Helped by the fact that we are a record keeping church. It will be fascinating to see what comes out of all the literary and critical research that is starting to take place as more non LDS colleges start up LDS studies depts.
John LaLone | 3:36 p.m. July 7, 2008
I think some people use Church History as an excuse to leave. Our history is what it is. Dirty or clean. It doesn't change the fulness of my heart when I quietly read the Book of Mormon in the morning. Or the happiness and joy I have with my family.
Everyone has doubts from time to time. But I've never seen doubts cure a man or make him happy. But I have seen entire lives of sadness built upon doubts.
Faith for me, has made me happy. Church history won't change that. Its solid, albeit less than pleasant at times. But the work of a "lying man" can't explain the profound peace and joy in my life.
Everyone has doubts from time to time. But I've never seen doubts cure a man or make him happy. But I have seen entire lives of sadness built upon doubts.
Faith for me, has made me happy. Church history won't change that. Its solid, albeit less than pleasant at times. But the work of a "lying man" can't explain the profound peace and joy in my life.
True dat | 5:25 p.m. July 7, 2008
Amen my brotha!
Hoosier | 9:57 p.m. July 7, 2008
I'm a convert to the LDS Church, having been a member of the Reformed Church...which broke off from the Lutheran Church...which broke off from the Catholic Church. Now there is history for you. Beheadings, persecution, the church controlled the state, etc. All religion has a history, both positive and negative. The Pope is a good man, Martin Luther was a good man, Zwingli was a good man. Joseph was a good man and Pres. Monson is a good man. I keep a personal history that tells both positive and negative experiences.. Does that make me a fraud?
RF | 1:37 p.m. July 8, 2008
It is wonderful that we live in a country where we can all have and express our own opinions! I enjoyed this article as I have been researching my own family history off and on for several years. Having old documents preserved will only aid me in that endeavor. I don't see this as any different from historians trying to preserve and restore documents on U.S. history, or anyone's history for that matter. One thing I have learned about history is that it is recorded by human beings, all of which make mistakes. Still, it is a treasure to be able to look back and learn from those who have gone before us.
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