When high school learning environments get better, More CE courses can be offered. Until then, the number should continue to decline as we weed out the bad schools and poor teachers. We don't help High Schools by stooping down to their level. We help them by lifting them up to a higher level.

If concurrent enrollment is to be saved, it should be done in such a way that the high school students get the same education as those who take the same class at university.

Concurrent enrollment is a great and innovative idea. However strict standards must be put in place to ensure that the high school experience isn't dumbed down, which is the tendency in Utah schools.

This simply comes down to a "turf war" between higher ed and secondary ed. The claim that the students get a better education is simply not true.

Many educators at the higher ed level have not been trained in pedagogy. Don't get me wrong, these people are bright and have an excellent command of their subject material. They simply don't understand nor practice the best methods of presentation. Think back to your own college professors. How many just get up and give a boring lecture day after day.

As for rigor at the secondary level I can only speak for myself. I use the same syllabus, the same homework and the same exams as I do in my on campus college classes. The rigor is the same.

From experience I can tell you.
1) CE is a strong and powerful thing.

2) 60 credits for an Associates Degree is too much.

3) Students who complete up to one year of General Education type courses come out ahead and are well
served.

4) Those who do more than that are usually behind in College.

A limit of 30 - 35 credit hours would strenghten the program and stop most of the abuse.

If you are doing a good job, good for you, Utah needs you. However due to low pay for teachers. There are many people attracted to the education profession who are in it over their heads.

The legislature had to mandate that grade school students be taught how to do multiplication and division of decimals and fractions by hand. Many "educators" thought it was sufficient to have them do it only on a calculator. The educators were hoodwinked into thinking this would free the students up to learn "higher concepts". Problem was no higher concepts were being taught either.

At the secondary level, many teachers have gotten away from teaching students the derivations of math and physics formulas and fact. The students are merely handed the formulas then given at most very simple problems to solve. At the secondary level higher level concepts have been forgotten in favor of the rote.

A friend of mine who substitute teaches went to Clearfield high to teach calculus. He was told not to teach any proofs, merely give the facts to be taught that day. He thought this was wrong. He disobeyed and was never asked to return.

Concurrent enrollment is only part of the issues surrounding the acquisition of the Associates Degree during the High School experience. The Schools proctoring the Associates Degrees have certain criteria to assure that the degree is valid. These may vary between the Higher Ed Schools which the High Schools need to meet, then you have the issues of the teachers being Certified with the Concurrent Enrollment needs. Very complex and then you have to get the parents involved...

Now the state of Utah will pay upto 3/4 of the tuition (instate colleges with the private colleges getting the state average) for a Bachelors degree for the student who graduates HS with an AS Degree. All the more reason to get the AS Deegree at the same time as the HS Diploma.

It is a great program with some tweaking that needs to be done. Take it slow and mthodical and we will all win.

@re Navyvet:

Any sub that fails to teach what the teacher outines should not be invited back. He/she has no idea of the context of the lesson plan.

There is a program that has not been mentioned. It is AP. The AP tests are standardized assessments that sets an international level of rigor in a variety of subjects.

The state of Utah should set a standard for earning college credits from both CE and AP. They could offer a high school diploma with an "academic honors" designation. This could then serve as a standard for some scholarships and grants. Earning a complete associates degree is a goal that cannot be met by the majority of high school students.

CE is an out of date program. If you are really interested in accelerated learning, work with colleges to offer FASTER courses. The kids these days are bored to tears with the pace of education. They can (and often do) handle things much faster than "we" used to. Set up a fast paced ONE YEAR Associates degree at SLCC, for example. The kids can take it and it will save everyone time and money PLUS it would be much more appropriate.

re Navyvet

I absolutely agree with you on the basics. I go crazy teaching advanced classes to students who can't do fractions and who can't factor etc. etc. etc. I spend more time on the basics that they should have learned in Elementary School and Junior High than I do on the material I'm currently teaching.

As far as your friend substituting. You nor your friend know what the teacher had in mind long term for the class. Perhaps the regular teacher was going to cover the proofs on a different day or had already done so or . . . we just don't know. One reason that I really don't like to be gone is substitutes that won't follow instructions. I have a plan and want the activities for that day to fall within the framework of my overall plan. When a substitute won't follow instructions I end up doing "damage control" the following day. In that case the substitute ended up wasting a day.

If there is any way to avoid an absence I will do so because I don't want to deal with a substitute.

"Any sub that fails to teach what the teacher outines should not be invited back. He/she has no idea of the context of the lesson plan".

The sub not getting invited back is not the problem. What’s at issue is the way Utah secondary schools teach math.

It is wrong to teach the mechanics of math without teaching the whys. Just as it would be wrong to teach facts in an AP history class without discussing the motivations (the whys) of the players.

In any case what is happening in many Utah math classes and physics classes is wrong. We are creating shallow students who have no deep understanding and can solve only simple to medium problems. The whys and the difficult problems have been eliminated

As a result, students who take CE are not getting the same education as students who take the same class from a university why has itself not gone down the dumbed down math path.

I work at a higher ed institution in the state and have to go out and observe the concurrent enrollment classes that are taught from my department at the local high schools. Do all universities not check up on the quality of the classes they sponsor?

One issue faced by some of the CE teachers that I talk to is that the students want to treat the class as a high school class that they can kick back and relax in - they don't understand the extra work involved and the extra importance of not failing a class.